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[Engine] 2007 Citroen Berlingo 1.6 HDi Not Starting
#1
Following on from my intro, according to the previous owner, the van, which had never before given a problem, suddenly cut out and would not re-start.
The engine turned over OK but it would not start.
The AA was called and diagnosed that the problem was a faulty ecu.
Of course I cannot know exactly what the AA man based his opinion on.
When I got the van here diagnostic equipment was connected - a Delphi DS150E - but 'no communication' when it came to trying to get error codes about the engine.
Could read all other systems OK but nothing about the engine.
The following came up which could not be erased:

Instrument - Magnetti Marelli (3 fault codes)
- Coolant temperature, information received faulty - Permanent
- RPM speed, information received faulty - Permanent
- DATAB-line, no communication - Intermittent

Body computer (BSI)(1 fault code)
- Engine control unit; communication faulty, - Present
(Presumably why the AA mechanic declared the ecu to be faulty.)

I don't know what warning lights should show on this van's dash when starting but I am sure there must be an engine management light (and possibly one for the glow plugs).
There isn't, which I believe could indeed indicate a problem with the ecu.
Before blaming the ecu itself a voltage check at the ecu to see if it is getting power seemed a good idea.
On searching for an illustration of the pin-out for the Bosch EDC16C34, the type of ecu on this vehicle, I could only find the the attached.
Pin C3, switched 12 volts (marked 'ignition' in the illustration) does have 12v on it OK when the ignition is switched on.
H4 (marked '0 volts') checks out for continuity to chassis OK.
But G1 (marked '+12 volts') doesn't have a wire going to it.
In fact the plug has that position blanked off.
So which pin needs to be checked that the ecu is getting its main 12v supply?
It clearly is not the one marked in the illustration.
If I can confirm that the ecu is actually getting power then I might have to come back for more help but that is jumping the gun at this stage.
If this has been covered before perhaps someone can kindly point me to the appropriate thread.
I have found the same topic on models very close but not identical to mine and for one thing illustrations are simply not what I have under my bonnet.


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#2
Im sorry this all sounds very complex but if it helps there are companies that can repair and / or do a ECU test assuming its not one thats factory sealed.There is one here in Plymouth,i think they charge around £70 for a test and report,at least it could rule it out for you.Just a thought.
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#3
(03-11-2015, 03:06 PM)pbws Wrote:  Following on from my intro, according to the previous owner, the van, which had never before given a problem, suddenly cut out and would not re-start.
The engine turned over OK but it would not start.
The AA was called and diagnosed that the problem was a faulty ecu.
Of course I cannot know exactly what the AA man based his opinion on.
When I got the van here diagnostic equipment was connected - a Delphi DS150E - but 'no communication' when it came to trying to get error codes about the engine.
Could read all other systems OK but nothing about the engine.
The following came up which could not be erased:

Instrument - Magnetti Marelli (3 fault codes)
- Coolant temperature, information received faulty - Permanent
- RPM speed, information received faulty - Permanent
- DATAB-line, no communication - Intermittent

Body computer (BSI)(1 fault code)
- Engine control unit; communication faulty, - Present
(Presumably why the AA mechanic declared the ecu to be faulty.)

I don't know what warning lights should show on this van's dash when starting but I am sure there must be an engine management light (and possibly one for the glow plugs).
There isn't, which I believe could indeed indicate a problem with the ecu.
Before blaming the ecu itself a voltage check at the ecu to see if it is getting power seemed a good idea.
On searching for an illustration of the pin-out for the Bosch EDC16C34, the type of ecu on this vehicle, I could only find the the attached.
Pin C3, switched 12 volts (marked 'ignition' in the illustration) does have 12v on it OK when the ignition is switched on.
H4 (marked '0 volts') checks out for continuity to chassis OK.
But G1 (marked '+12 volts') doesn't have a wire going to it.
In fact the plug has that position blanked off.
So which pin needs to be checked that the ecu is getting its main 12v supply?
It clearly is not the one marked in the illustration.
If I can confirm that the ecu is actually getting power then I might have to come back for more help but that is jumping the gun at this stage.
If this has been covered before perhaps someone can kindly point me to the appropriate thread.
I have found the same topic on models very close but not identical to mine and for one thing illustrations are simply not what I have under my bonnet.

Do you have Lexia?
Reply
#4
(03-11-2015, 03:06 PM)pbws Wrote:  On searching for an illustration of the pin-out for the Bosch EDC16C34, the type of ecu on this vehicle, I could only find the the attached.
Pin C3, switched 12 volts (marked 'ignition' in the illustration) does have 12v on it OK when the ignition is switched on.
H4 (marked '0 volts') checks out for continuity to chassis OK.
But G1 (marked '+12 volts') doesn't have a wire going to it.
In fact the plug has that position blanked off.
So which pin needs to be checked that the ecu is getting its main 12v supply?
It clearly is not the one marked in the illustration.

Blanked pin on ecu side connector or on harness car side ? That is very strange... Are you sure that is EDC16C34 ? maybe it is Simens ...

You can open the ecu and connect to pcb but you have to have BDM100 of Galleto.
Here is the tut: http://www.tek-tronics.co.uk/BDM100.pdf

Best regards,
brajomobil

EDIT: I have checked ECU on my car there are NO blanked wires...
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#5
(05-11-2015, 08:22 AM)brajomobil Wrote:  
(03-11-2015, 03:06 PM)pbws Wrote:  On searching for an illustration of the pin-out for the Bosch EDC16C34, the type of ecu on this vehicle, I could only find the the attached.
Pin C3, switched 12 volts (marked 'ignition' in the illustration) does have 12v on it OK when the ignition is switched on.
H4 (marked '0 volts') checks out for continuity to chassis OK.
But G1 (marked '+12 volts') doesn't have a wire going to it.
In fact the plug has that position blanked off.
So which pin needs to be checked that the ecu is getting its main 12v supply?
It clearly is not the one marked in the illustration.

Blanked pin on ecu side connector or on harness car side ? That is very strange... Are you sure that is EDC16C34 ? maybe it is Simens ...

You can open the ecu and connect to pcb but you have to have BDM100 of Galleto.
Here is the tut: http://www.tek-tronics.co.uk/BDM100.pdf

Best regards,
brajomobil

EDIT: I have checked ECU on my car there are NO blanked wires...


Hi brajomobil and all who responded so far,

Concerning the 'blanked off' position on the 'plug' - At risk of being pedantic, the plug is actually one of three flying sockets since it contains the female parts of the connector arrangement to the ecu. I'll just call it a connector. If I take the back off the connector I can see that there are more pins on the ecu, so more holes in the connector, than there are wires. Not every pin ultimately has a wire connected to it. Where there is no wire that position on the connector has a plastic plug in it instead of the little metal contact that a wire would normally be connected to. Without even removing the back of the connector, if I look into the individual holes in connector I can see which have metal insets and are wired and which are not. There are several such positions that are 'blanked off' in this way. I haven't counted how many but on my van pin G1 on the ecu is one that doesn't have a wire going to it. Maybe on some vehicles more pins on the ecu have wires going to them - maybe every pin is wired - but that is certainly not the case with mine.

The ecu is definitely marked Bosch EDC16C34.

So, on mine the main 12 volt supply must be to a different pin.
Or doesn't it use a constant 12V, its only power being the switched 12V?
I had hoped one of the forum's experts could tell me which pins to put my meter on to rule out (or in) the ecu.
On other cars whenever I have had diagnostic equipment showing 'no communication' it has turned out to be a wiring problem.
I have yet to come across a faulty ecu.
This might be a first but taking the ecu off without doing some initial basic voltage and wiring continuity checks seem like expensive stabbing in the dark.
Worse, if the ecu comes back with a clean bill of health I am no further on.

Testing or working on the ecu might have to come later but for now I just want to check it is getting power.
I don't want to cast aspersions on the AA man but I have heard more that once it declared that a particular unit is faulty and needs replacing when the problem has actually been a frayed wire, a bad earth connection, a corroded connector, etc.
The ecu might indeed be faulty but I am not going to open it up or send it away for expensive testing without first doing a couple of simple tests with a multimeter.
So back to my quest to find which pins on the ecu to check.

No Lexia here but seeing what I can borrow.
Can borrow a Snap-on Ethos
Asking a seasoned mechanic, he hasn't come across a Citroen that both his Snap-on Ethos and Delphi DS150E couldn't communicate with.
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#6
On a couple of occasions my van's engine electrics have gone into a complete sulk, which I have cured by simply disconnecting the battery and re-connecting it. I'm not suggesting that this is a dead cert to fix your problem, but you have nothing to lose by trying.
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#7
(08-11-2015, 12:48 AM)JohnM Wrote:  On a couple of occasions my van's engine electrics have gone into a complete sulk, which I have cured by simply disconnecting the battery and re-connecting it. I'm not suggesting that this is a dead cert to fix your problem, but you have nothing to lose by trying.

Thanks for suggestion.
Tried battery disconnection/re-connection/BSI reset procedure.
It won't do any harm to try again.
Looking at old threads for similar problem it seems I need the likes of member 'Rustscrat' to help with my request for ecu pin-out.
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#8
(06-11-2015, 09:03 PM)pbws Wrote:  
(05-11-2015, 08:22 AM)brajomobil Wrote:  So, on mine the main 12 volt supply must be to a different pin.
Or doesn't it use a constant 12V, its only power being the switched 12V?
I had hoped one of the forum's experts could tell me which pins to put my meter on to rule out (or in) the ecu.
On other cars whenever I have had diagnostic equipment showing 'no communication' it has turned out to be a wiring problem.
I have yet to come across a faulty ecu.

Sorry for the late reply I have been out of PC for 2 weeks.
I have talked to ECU expert and here is his answer. The +12 on G1 is to wake up ECU to flash or to modify it.
If you connect +12 to G1  ECU will be UP and running all the time. If there is no +12 to G1 ECU will go to "sleep" mode
after some time. If the ECU does not go to sleep mode it will drain battery.
You have to check if there is +12 to wire C1 when you turn ignition, and good ground to H4.
Then disconnect battery and check continuity of can-H and can-L to OBD connector.
If the above turns out to be OK then you can suspect something is wrong with ECU.
To check ECU i would go this way: 
ECU is connected in car , connect G1 to +12 , try with OBD diagnostic.
If the above does not work:
Remove it from car and connect directly to cheap OBD diagnostic.
Find out pinout of OBD and you have pinout from  EDC16c43 , just be sure to connect +12 to G1

Best regards,
brajomobil
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#9
(17-11-2015, 11:19 AM)brajomobil Wrote:  
(06-11-2015, 09:03 PM)pbws Wrote:  
(05-11-2015, 08:22 AM)brajomobil Wrote:  So, on mine the main 12 volt supply must be to a different pin.
Or doesn't it use a constant 12V, its only power being the switched 12V?
I had hoped one of the forum's experts could tell me which pins to put my meter on to rule out (or in) the ecu.
On other cars whenever I have had diagnostic equipment showing 'no communication' it has turned out to be a wiring problem.
I have yet to come across a faulty ecu.

Sorry for the late reply I have been out of PC for 2 weeks.
I have talked to ECU expert and here is his answer. The +12 on G1 is to wake up ECU to flash or to modify it.
If you connect +12 to G1  ECU will be UP and running all the time. If there is no +12 to G1 ECU will go to "sleep" mode
after some time. If the ECU does not go to sleep mode it will drain battery.
You have to check if there is +12 to wire C1 when you turn ignition, and good ground to H4.
Then disconnect battery and check continuity of can-H and can-L to OBD connector.
If the above turns out to be OK then you can suspect something is wrong with ECU.
To check ECU i would go this way: 
ECU is connected in car , connect G1 to +12 , try with OBD diagnostic.
If the above does not work:
Remove it from car and connect directly to cheap OBD diagnostic.
Find out pinout of OBD and you have pinout from  EDC16c43 , just be sure to connect +12 to G1

Best regards,
brajomobil


Hi brajomobil,
Thanks for the very welcome info.
As reported, there is a solid +12V on pin C3 (I think you must have meant C3 rather than C1) with ign switched on.
And H3 has an equally good connection to deck.
So it looks like the ecu is getting power OK.
When I get the chance I'll do the rest of the checks you suggest.
I'll let you know how I get on.
Kind regards
pbws
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#10
Yes, C3 . Typo... Sorry...

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