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[Engine] 1.4 56 Plate Petrol Misfiring & Stalling Only when Cold
#1
Hi,
The van is my dads. It is a 1.4 petrol 56 plate. Its got about 68k miles on the clock.

For a few months now its been rough on idle until it warms up. Will stall a little bit when its really cold. Once its warmed up the van runs perfectly.

However with the cold weather coming its getting worse. It got to the point where it struggled to start and had to put revs on to get it to start. You couldnt keep foot off throttle or would cut out.

Before it got worse I already tried the following but didnt cure or improve.
Replaced & gapped the spark plugs
Replaced the Air Filter
Cleaned breather hose & butterfly valve
Ran one course of injector cleaner in with petrol

At this point I plugged it on the diagnostic but no codes were stored.

Now its getting worse.
I plugged it on the diagnostic and there was some codes.
Misfire on Cylinder 4
Vehicle Speed Sensor problem

I cleared them off and started the van. I noticed the coolant sensor was reading alot higher than Air intake and oil temperatures from cold. I replaced the ECT sensor as thought this could cause incorrect fueling.

Since replacing the ECT sensor it did improve but the misfire is still there. The Vehicle Speed Sensor problem did not come back on the diagnostic, but Misfire on Cylinder 4 did, along with Misfiring due to low fuel level.

When the van is started there is a strong smell of petrol coming from the exhaust. The RPM fluctuates between 500 - 650. When looking at the live data there is no difference when the lambda sensors are in closed or open loop so that tends to rule it being fault O2 Sensors I think.

As soon as the van starts to heat up the rpm improves and the engine runs smoothly as if there is no problem.

I am going to replace the fuel filter today incase its not getting enough fuel to the injectors when it is needing more fuel when cold to see if that helps. With it being misfire on cylinder 4, and the misfiring due to low fuel level faults on the diagnostic, would you suggest that this could be a faulty injector on cylinder 4?

I hear the IAC Valve buzzing when its cold so that suggests the stepper motor is also working too.

The problem is with the 1.4 berlingo it doesnt tell me the fuel pressure or the afr reading, injector pressures or anything on the snap on ethos. (it does on other cars)

What would you all suggest? Any any help is appreciated.

Got my dad coming over this evening with the van, im gonna replace the fuel filter, prefill the filter with 50% injector cleaner too. I am going to check with multimeter the resistance on each injector etc too. Due to the fault codes being received im pretty sure its a fault with the fueling rather than ignition.

Anyone had this problem before?
Thanks in advance.
Tommy


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#2
Well yes.. but it might not help too much beyond confirming the fact that it's a fueling / injection issue. I say that because mine is an LPG conversion and it had very similar symptoms when running on LPG.

The car starts on petrol so there were no issues, but when it switched to gas it would misfire on the 4th cylinder. I think the code was something like PO304. It idled lumpy on gas too and shuddered until it was fully warm. Winter made the symptoms far far worse.

The car would misfire then run on 3 cylinders and go into limp mode. I had to stop and re-start it to cure the misfire.

My problem was shot LPG injectors. However, when the car got upto full working temp it ran perfectly. Basically the seals in the injectors wear and get gunked with a stick residue. This liquefied at working temp, so the car ran normally. In winter, it made it worse because it started from a colder temp and took longer to warm up.

Changed the injectors and it's been perfect since.

So from my limited experience it does seem like a possible injector fault? Can you switch number 4 with one of the others?
[+] 1 user says Thank You to tucker for this post
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#3
Hi tucker, thanks for the reply.
Yes that seems the same problem, the whole van shudders when cold.
The van does get used on a building site alot so gets very dusty. I will swap the injector over with injector 3 and see if the misfire then appears on number 3.
When I swap the injectors do I need to replace any seals and have them handy?
Thank you
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#4
Ok bit of an update...
I changed the fuel filter tonight. The van has done about 68k Miles and never had the fuel filter changed once. That changed and Injector cleaner poured into petrol tank (didnt fill any in the filter as was too fiddly).

Started the van and it actually at first seemed to run fine. After like 30 seconds or so it gradually got worse. The van went into Limp mode. Turned it off put it back on the diagnostic and cleared the two faults as above "Misfire Cylinder 4" and "Combustion Misfire due to low fuel level"

After restarting the van it wasn't any longer in limp mode. Give it a bit of a fast idle to get the injector cleaner running through. Took the van for a quick 5 minute drive and was running perfect (normally cuts out when coming to junctions etc) Got back home came to a stop engine still going without stalling but rough. As soon as revs are put on the engine is fine.

I am pretty sure its injector cylinder 4 as the diagnostic suggests misfire due to fuel and cylinder 4 misfiring. Going to give it a week of running with the injector cleaner in, and put some more in next time fill up and see how it goes.

If it doesn't get any better going to take out the injector and get it cleaned or replace it.

Would you all agree that it sounds like a blockage in the injector?
Thanks
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#5
(10-12-2011, 08:19 PM)tommyberlingo Wrote:  Would you all agree that it sounds like a blockage in the injector?
Thanks

No, it looks like there was not enough pressure from fuel pump.

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#6
(10-12-2011, 08:47 PM)pk7478 Wrote:  
(10-12-2011, 08:19 PM)tommyberlingo Wrote:  Would you all agree that it sounds like a blockage in the injector?
Thanks

No, it looks like there was not enough pressure from fuel pump.

Happening my 1.6hdi, delaying a proper fix by running a 2 stroke mix to lube the pump.

BTW there's no need to gap plugs anymore. Did you open up or close down the gaps.

And if my gsxr runs perfect at 16000 revs at std gaps a std car don't need it
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#7
i opened them up very very slightly but the problem was there with the plugs installed previously too. Ok so do you think the next step is to get the fuel rail on a pressure guage? what should the pressure be? Also why would it only give a misfire on cylinder 4? would that not cause the other cylinders to also have lack of fuel?

when the engine running fine it doesnt seem lack of fuel, can put foot down to request more umph and it will give it, but its only at idle when the problem exists when it doesnt need as much fuel, which is making me think blocked injector as maybes its not spraying a nice fine pattern, but rather a stream of petrol in cylinder which isnt burning, which is being detected by lambda putting it into Limp mode.

If i got a pressure guage on the fuel rail to test fuel pressure and it was ok, if I disconnected cylinder 4 Injector by the wiring plug, and if it ran on 3 cylinders lumpy as it is now then that would show that its that injector right? and then plug it back on, unplug a different injector which then it might be running on 2 and a bit cylinders which would be even worse, so that would then prove that injectors not operating correctly right?
Thanks for the replys
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#8
Update*
Car was going into Limp mode, chucked it on diagnostic same fault codes as previous.

I have removed the fuel injectors, cleaned number 4, using DIY Technique with carb cleaner, battery jump pack, rubber tubes etc. The injector wasn't holding pressure, it was leaking out. Cleaned it, and back flushed it, and injector is now not leaking. Put it all back together, engine now starting easy, not going into Limp Mode, but still low RPM and juddering ONLY when cold. Put it on the diagnostic, only fault code coming back on now is the Vehicle Speed Sensor problem. I know this controls part of the fuel management, but cant see why it would effect it when cold only, but the fault is there so going to replace it on Wednesday. Going to test coil pack just to rule it out too. Will keep updated incase anyone gets this same fault.
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#9
*UPDATE*
Today I fitted the new VSS (speedo). Cleared fault off ECU and it didnt come back on. But the problem still exists.

I tried changing the coil pack by borrowing one off my brothers C2, and made no difference. Put it back on Diagnostic and saying misfiring Cylinder 4 due to no combustion.

This made me do a compression test on the cylinder, and I have now got some results.

Cylinder 4 90 psi
Other Cylinders averaging around 210 psi.

So low compression on cylinder 4 must be the problem.
I have now booked it into a garage to have a cylinder leakage test done on friday.

Re checked the oil and oils being used up again!.
So low compression and oil being consumed, Headgasket or Piston Rings i reckon, but gonna get cylinder leakage test done to confirm which one. So im gonna be busy. If its the piston rings, my dads thinking of getting a second hand engine put in, as who knows what other damage could be done off low engine oil.

If its head gasket, then gonna get head skimmed, and do timing belt at same time too.
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#10
Probably I don't need to say this but when the head comes off make sure the valves/springs on that cylinder are also checked.
If 210psi is the norm and that pot is down to 90 then it's losing almost 60%
compression. If that was due to a broken piston ring then the motor would be smoking heavily. I'd be praying for a badly blown head gasket!:S
[fon‌t=Tahoma, Calibri, Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]The Older I get the Better I Was!  Cool [/font]
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