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Knowlege block
#1
Hi Folks, I am a retired electronics technician, and I am currently studying the DW8 diesel engine (later version using a ecu to control the injection pump timing) used in my 01 Multispace, my question is, how do I find a circuit diagram or schematic for this engine? Referring to things like the handbook or a Haynes manual isnt much help as they do not go into detail that I need. Short of buying a bootleg version of Citroens own database, which usually covers all the vehicles they manufacture and therefore is a bit of an overkill, takes 3 hours to load and a mite expensive at £30, and something I dont feel particularly comfortable with, why is there this need to hide knowledge? Surely any one engaged in some kind of dubious activity (although I cannot imagine how this applies to an old diesel!) also has the contacts to circumnavigate manufacturers limits on knowledge access. As you can guess from my handle, I also own a Morris Minor, no probs with info on this, it hasnt got any electronics! Its barely got an electrical system!
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#2
Hello and welcome, morrisminor.

Glad to see you are studying the DW8 engine, we will of course be asking you questions on it later :!::!::!::!:

To what academic level are you studying the wondourous subject of Citroen electrics? is this a foundation degree or are you taking it to Doctorate or PHD :?::?::?:

I would suggest that at the heady heights of PHD you might just have scratched the surface on what seems to be a thorn in the side and regular PITA with Citroen owners.

In short, the wiring and electrics leave a bit to be desired and finding things out seems to be cloaked in secrecy.

On my travels the other week I met up with members of the South Wales Austin 7 Club and their vehicles and I though how great, basic and back to grass roots.

The more one delves, the more one is left wondering why have the manufacturers done that damned stupid idea etc etc :?::?::?:

Good luck in finding out and like you also say, Mr Haynes and his latest writings do not offer much sense on the subject either...
Berlingo Multispace 2.0HDI '54 reg Mediterranean Blue
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#3
(08-06-2011, 09:24 AM)andy-womble Wrote:  Hello and welcome, morrisminor.

Glad to see you are studying the DW8 engine, we will of course be asking you questions on it later :!::!::!::!:

To what academic level are you studying the wondourous subject of Citroen electrics? is this a foundation degree or are you taking it to Doctorate or PHD :?::?::?:

I would suggest that at the heady heights of PHD you might just have scratched the surface on what seems to be a thorn in the side and regular PITA with Citroen owners.

In short, the wiring and electrics leave a bit to be desired and finding things out seems to be cloaked in secrecy.

On my travels the other week I met up with members of the South Wales Austin 7 Club and their vehicles and I though how great, basic and back to grass roots.

The more one delves, the more one is left wondering why have the manufacturers done that damned stupid idea etc etc :?::?::?:

Good luck in finding out and like you also say, Mr Haynes and his latest writings do not offer much sense on the subject either...

Hi Andy (womble), thank you for taking the time to write and thank you for the welcome! When I say 'studying' its not for a formal academic qualification, just something I need to do to find out all there is to know about the subject-I call it studying and research.
Let me explain, I purchased this Berlingo about two weeks ago, within 200 miles of use the cambelt 'jumped'(due to faulty idler), breaking the camshaft into three pieces, now in my search for a replacement engine (lots out there, but most want £300 plus) I found one in a breakers yard recently yanked out of an accident damaged Peugeot 206, it was basically the same engine but with air conditioning, which meant the wiring loom was different, some other differences were found in the sensors, inlet manifold etc,so I had to do a lot of swapping around. Anyway, to cut a long story, I finally got to the stage of running it, only to find that it would start instantly and run on tickover perfectly for exactly 3 seconds with no smoke or funny noises, and then go into the smoke zone, idling rough and barely able to rev. Initially I was a bit bamboozled because the engine had obviously been on its side and so oil must have got into the upper cylinder, once this had burnt off I still had the same problem. The only 'electronics' on the injection pump are in fact electrical, stop solenoid, throttle position potentiometer and the advance/retard solenoid (situated at the bottom of the injection pump) and this problem sounds as though the injection pump is being driven to its maximum retarded position by the ECU. I actually removed the ECU and checked on a good running Peugeot partner combi of the same year - runs perfect, so at that stage I decided I had better find out what signals were going to this solenoid and wherefrom, hence the request for info from the experts! Anyway, I have removed all the sensors, one at a time, with no change. Changed all the injectors, one at a time with a known set of good ones, no change. Removed the advance/retard solenoid, examined it-looked fine, replaced it with a known good one. Today I am checking the pump timing, if thats ok it seems it will leave only the injection pump as the culprit, unless of course I am missing something (a few brain cells perhaps). I knew nothing about these engines two weeks ago, but basic principals still apply! As regards the standard of wiring/electricals used in the Berlingo, seem pretty good to me' for ten year old wiring. Sam
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#4
Hello again, morrisminor, forgive me for my slightly "tongue in cheek" reply to your original thread. My sense of humor got the better of me, but all I wrote about Cit/Pug electrics and wiring is still relevant and does leave a lot to be desired.

I have heard of owners who have accessed the fuel shut off solenoid and either removed it from the pump, neccesitating stalling of the engine to stop it or conversely running a direct live feed and thus bypassing the immobiliser etc but I too am at a loss as to the relevance of the other bolt on bits.
I am from the old school of diesel engine technology and still trying to get to grips with this new fangled stuff. My previous comment about needing a degree in "Citronics" is perhaps not far removed from the truth after all....

Good luck mate and keep us posted.
Berlingo Multispace 2.0HDI '54 reg Mediterranean Blue
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#5
(09-06-2011, 05:16 PM)andy-womble Wrote:  Hello again, morrisminor, forgive me for my slightly "tongue in cheek" reply to your original thread. My sense of humor got the better of me, but all I wrote about Cit/Pug electrics and wiring is still relevant and does leave a lot to be desired.

I have heard of owners who have accessed the fuel shut off solenoid and either removed it from the pump, neccesitating stalling of the engine to stop it or conversely running a direct live feed and thus bypassing the immobiliser etc but I too am at a loss as to the relevance of the other bolt on bits.
I am from the old school of diesel engine technology and still trying to get to grips with this new fangled stuff. My previous comment about needing a degree in "Citronics" is perhaps not far removed from the truth after all....

Good luck mate and keep us posted.

Hi, only wish it was a faulty stop solenoid - after market items are available which just require a live feed from the ignition switch and an earth, I know, I've got one as a spare should the alarm system play up! The original equipment one is completely round and difficult to unscrew unless you have the right manufacturers tool, got round this by angle grinding two flats and unscrewing it with a spanner!! Its the other one located underneath the injection pump which is giving me the trouble,just looking at it doesnt tell me its function although at this stage I'm tempted to cut it open(I have a spare) to find out whats in it! Well today I changed the injection pump complete, quite an easy job as it is just bolted in a subframe on the side of the engine although removing the timing belt (again) etc takes the majority of the time. Alas, as I thought, it didnt make the slightest bit of difference(the usual mega amount of unburnt fuel) so definately need some info on the nature of the signal that is supplied to it, until I can manage to do this the car is just a waste of valuable space! and remains immobile. Wouldnt happen with an Austin 7
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#6
any codes on the ECU? Airflow meter ok?
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#7
(09-06-2011, 09:30 PM)Phil_G Wrote:  any codes on the ECU? Airflow meter ok?

Hi Phil, thanks for taking an interest, unfortunately I have not got a code reader and its not driveable to where one may be found, as the airflow meter was working before the engine change, I presume its still working- I have noticed that on tickover it doesnt seem to make much difference whether it is connected or not, fortunately I have a friend who has a Peugeot partner combi of the same year with exactly the same engine and have been able to test the ecu and conduct the above test(as well as others) on a good running vehicle. I had considered that it might have a mechanical fault such as low compression on one of the cylinders, but then it wouldnt run well from the start, still starts well and runs beautifully for 3 seconds exactly! Sam
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#8
Hello Sam. If you contemplate buying a code reader, make sure it will communicate with your vehicle first. A mate of mine tried several instruments from his "armoury" before getting one to "talk" to my motor. Even though the blurb suggests they are "universal", in use they are not. Must be something to do with this "Citronics" thing I keep labouring on and talking s**t about.
Once again, good luck....
Berlingo Multispace 2.0HDI '54 reg Mediterranean Blue
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#9
hi sam. it sounds to me like the egr valve is open from the word go, the 3 second delay is the time taken for the vacuum signal which opens it to build up, solution would be to remove the egr body for test purposes and start it up and see what happens. alan.
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#10
(27-11-2011, 12:12 AM)manandvan Wrote:  hi sam. it sounds to me like the egr valve is open from the word go, the 3 second delay is the time taken for the vacuum signal which opens it to build up, solution would be to remove the egr body for test purposes and start it up and see what happens. alan.

Thanks for the reply Alan, The original thread was started back in June and it is now 27th November so we can only assume that Sam has either solved the problem by now, sold the vehicle in shear frustration or slashed his wrists in desparation. Either way I would have thought/hoped that a solution had been found in the intervening 5 months
Berlingo Multispace 2.0HDI '54 reg Mediterranean Blue
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